Being easy will keep students; being tough will run students off
I believe this is a powerful part of the course. So many feel they need to "give it to them", but it just doesn't work. It's not doing anyone justice... That's not why they are here!
Hi Nathan,
I completely agree. I have actually felt that indirectly, it makes the whole issue worse, since the better students get frustrated with having to slow down for those who aren't doing their work.
A rare few might actually persevere because they know their education is what they make of it, but so many actually stop trying hard-- since the "symbols" like grades etc will look the same, or they quit and look elsewhere to get a better value from their education.
I happen to agree with your comments, but have any of you actually had conversations with students that verify this belief? I wonder if the premise is verifiable.
Eric, do you think being easy reduces the desire to achieve or simply doesn't stimulate it?
,
I am not sure which comments you agree with, or which beliefs that you are curious?
Do students lower their performance to meet the standards enforced around them? Or Do students leave school to find better value?
In response to do people lower their performance to the standards of those around them?
As a former corporate trainer, I had access to many reports (and sat through extensive meetings) that showed that workers in the aggregate would center their efforts around what metrics that their supervisors expected of them, as long as these expectations were perceived as reasonable. While we loved it when people over-performed, we were less impressed when lowered expectations of our management staff correlated to lowered performance by that team. -- While these teams all had atypical individuals (10-30% of the team) that maintained their metrics after the leadership shift, interviews with them indicated again and again it was their own personal sense of pride in what they were doing that encouraged them to perform well, and most indicated that it was mentally draining to do so when the people around them were not being held to the same standards. Of those still performing, unless they were transferred to other work groups, or the standards for their group changed, over 50% chose to leave the company, and their exit interviews indicated a frustration with the conduct allowed, the feeling of being ignored because effort & energy were directed to underperformers, and they saw no opportunities for change. Pay was also a factor, and I would say this corresponds highly to the concept of perceived value for one's effort/time invested.
The interviews we had with the employees who continued to perform either indicated A) that these individuals held themselves to high standards, but actually didn't really engage with the other members of their team, and actually enjoyed the fact that their "better" performance relative to their peers allowed them the freedom to fly under the radar. OR B) They wanted additional responsibility and saw their membership on that team as a chance for them to make good impressions and mentor with people that could help them achieve their advancement goals.
While I accept that students are different than employees, In my experience I would say in regards to retention, and turn-over rates, the motivations between the two groups seem to me to be more alike than similar. Both groups will stay in a less than desirable situation because of personal relationships that they value, so it seems reasonable to believe that they would have similar responses into performing to expectations, liking/disliking the attention of those in positions of authority, making judgments about their efforts relative to perceived gains, and seeking to maximize that value through the opportunities presented when others don't want to fight for the attention of those who have knowledge of how to achieve their goals.
As for do I know if students actually do leave school to seek a better value?
Directly no, since as an instructor I do not have the ability to conduct exit interviews with students after they have actually left the school.
Indirectly, I have had some personal experience and conversations with students that I am basing this on, but that makes it anecdotal rather than "hard" proof."
Conversations/Observations with Students:
I have had conversations with students who express frustration about how they don't like what they perceive as poorer students being passed along. I have also had the opposite, where students say that they enjoyed my class more than they had expected at first because my class challenged them to do a lot, and didn't pander or seem like a "light" version of a general education course.
Other evidence from students is that the program at my school is not unique to our area, so there is comparison shopping that is discussed in the halls, or the back of the room in conversations that I am not meant to hear-- and they do compare the value they feel they are getting at our school to the value that other schools provide. Often times the tone is one of pride/rivalry, where we see ourselves as being the best-- but there are others (and this is natural) where we aren't--
I would have to assume that some of the second hand reports that I receive from students that so-and-so transferred to a competitor's program must be true-- and that perceived value of the degree would be one factor that would influence such a decision.
Personal Experience as a student:
Also, from personal experience as a student. I remember considering a school for a second master's degree, and one of the people that I spoke with at a particular school positioned the course as less than rigorous, and not something I should be concerned about when I asked a question about the expectations and workload associated.
I was looking to learn, not earn the degree for the sake of vanity, or to meet some HR requirement, so I wanted to hear it was a difficult course that would challenge me to improve.
Getting a different answer was disappointing. To me this indicated on of two possibilities: either that is an accurate assessment, or that the typical students that were attracted to that school/program generally preferred that type of answer-- both were unacceptable options so I walked away.
While I understand that I am one case, and it isn't fair to generalize that mindset recklessly, I also think it would be unfair to consider my position in that regard as unique.
My response to your question would be that it would be odd to believe that no students are affected by that line of thinking-- but to what degree does it actually influence a student's decision to leave school? Is it a rare factor, or one that is common?
What types of findings did you have in your experiences?
Now this is where I like to not make the material easier for the student. however there are those that get it and those that don't I do like to put the two together and work on it. the "better student" gets a sense of accomplishment for assisting a student that needs the help and the student that needs the help is not left to feel like he is embarrassed or being intimidated.
Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response, David. I hope that Forum participants will value your experience as a corporate trainer and faculty member. I think your observations accurately reflect the expectations of our best students and eventually, the best employees/graduates.
Francis, sounds like a win/win situation. The "better" student is also getting experience that hopefully, will be useful to them if they become supervisors on the job.
As a mathematics instructor teaching primarily medical assistant students, I rarely have to worry about "being easy". The course content at its bare minimum is challenging for even my best students. I follow the curriculum guidelines and have never considered "dumbing it down", instead I provide more support for students by extending office hours and answering questions from home. As a result, when students pass the course, I frequently hear comments like "I can't believe how much math I've learned!", "I can now help my kids with their math homework", "I wish I'd learned this way when I was in high school". There is a lot of student pride in having achieved a passing grade in a challenging course. This is definitely a positive factor in retention.
Good example of doing the right things the right way, Mary. Thank you.
this is all good stuff I think it needs to start easy and work into being hard. this giving everything is no good for anyone. hurts us and people hiring
I agree, you will always have ones that do not want to work hard and when they get used to having everything handed to them you will get push back when you ask them to "do it on their own". When they get to the workforce they struggle because they haven't learned how to do it on their own.
Interesting concept, Bryan, but what's easy for some students will be very challenging for others. It's important to maintain high standards, but it's also important to be aware of your students' abilities
Anthony, have you developed an techniques to address this issue? How do you get the students to respond positively to the challenge of doing it on their own?
I never really looked at it as being easy or tough some things in class are harder than others it all needs to be covered but grouping students together so that they can learn from each other does work well. Is an adjustment to make something too easy really in the students best interest in the long run?
I agree. Students enjoy being challenged. What's important is how we challenge them and support their input.
Whether a student answers a question right or wrong I always comment, "good answer", but then comment as to why they are correct and if not correct, guide them to the correct answer. Student appreciate positive reinforcement.
I assume that's a rhetorical question, John. Have you ever heard anyone suggest that making something easy is in the students' best interest?
Being easy just gives the student the impression they don't have to work then they become bored. The bigger problem in my opinion is when one or more instructors adapt the being easy attitude in their class this message is passed along to the student then when they get in a class where the teacher is tough suddenly they are overwhelmed and don't know how to cope.
Tom, who is responsible for instructor oversight? These inconsistencies should be caught - and addressed - in the review process. This also seems like an opportunity for staff development.
